Ergonomy problems

Discuss the free TT-like game Simutrans.
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Hajo
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Post by Hajo »

Saskia wrote:Because Simutrans seems to be oriented to those, who build 90° curves
This is true.
It's nearly impossible to build more complex tracks [Gleisanlagen].
This is a myth IMO :)

PS: maybe we have different ideas of "complex tracks". I never felt limited, but TTD players keep telling me that's impossible to build "complex tracks". Unless I understand what's the limiting factor, I can't remove it.
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Post by Saskia »

Hm ... I don't like those 90° curves that are used to produce networks with efficiency, but no realism. My curves are all diagonal, and if Simutrans automatically connects them, I have to leave much space between them. And it's limiting, that every connection between two tracks is like a double track connection (you can change from track A to B and B to A in both directions), and there's no possibility to build a simple switch from track A to B. I mean such things like the above. Without a bit of [Entscheidungsfreiraum, wie die Gleise gelegt/verbunden werden sollen], you (or at least I) can't build complex track systems. If this would be my computer at home, I could show you a few example screenshots :?
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Post by Hajo »

Maybe you can send me some screenshots some way and we can talk about solutions. Sometimes you'll have to use different approaches, but I think for each construct you've used in TTD we can find a (probably different) solution that works in Simutrans.

This offer isn't made for Saskia only, but everyone. I'm really curious what kind of constructs you use that you can't replace by something that works in Simutrans, too.

I assume sometimes solutions for Simutrans they will need more space than their TD equivalents, though. But you can have bigger maps in Simutrans than you have in TTD, so space shouldn't be problem usually.
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Post by Saskia »

I meant such compact networks, that fit in a city:
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=8966
:wink:
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Post by Hajo »

Well, I can't really see something there that can't be done with Simutrans? But I didn't actually try to rebuild all those scenarios so I might have missed something.

Maybe you can be a bit more specific what's the problem?

E.g. a screen from an older Simutrans version:
http://www.simugraph.com/simutrans/simu ... omplex.jpg

You can't build that in TTD because you can't build bridges over diagonal tracks and you can't build bridges over bridges.

So far we have a draw. You've shown me a screen that you say can't be built in Simutrans and I've shown you a screen that I say can't be built in TTD.

But that doesn't help. My offer still stands: if you describe a scenario that you think you can't build in Simutrans, I'll try to find a solution. But I'll not just rebuild any series of TTD screenies.

Edit:

I feel this answer doesn't really help to solve the problem. Simutrans usually needs a bit more space than TTD but I've said that already in my last message. When you were talking about complex networks, I thought your were talking about complex functionality, not tight layout. I meant, if you have a crossing or switch construction and you need something equivalent in Simutrans, I'll help to find a solution.

There are a few things that must be considered:

Station in Simutrans usually need more platforms than in TTD because you need one platform for each train that is set to "wait for load" at that station (having one platform for all trains that unload there is fine, though)

Along with that, you usually don't have to use such complicated switch constructs as in TTD, because the trains know where to go. Schedules in Simutrans are platform precise.

Often TTD player complain that trains don't work in Simutrans. Sometimes the reason is that they don't know how trains work in Simutrans, and if they try their TTD constructs it indeed doesn't work. The sad thing is, they claim Simutrans to be the fault, while actually they just didn't understand how Simutarns works :(

That's why I offer help - if there is something that doesn't seem to work or can't be done, I'll try to find a solution. But this will sometime mean to build the network in a different style.
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Post by Saskia »

Those bridge possibilities are nice :)

Hm, what I mean is ... that in (O)TTD you can lay the tracks more flexible. As I said above, connections between two tracks are always such little T-junctions, even if you only wanted a simple switch to create a branch of the track. BTW, I love realism ;) And you can build compact two-track mainlines, without these rooms between the tracks. If I cant build such compact two-track lines, I'm not feeling good while building them, destroy them, and build a street, because that don't looks so "wrong" :?

It's not bad if simutrans needs more space, but not in the space-between-tracks-in-curves-issue. It would be better if it needs more space, because you couldn't build low-radius curves *gg*

Another issue is the "track connection scheme": If you build two straight lines in front of each other, they will not be one single line, until you connect them. That's nice, but somewhat useless, because you can't use [Abstellgleise] yet ;) In TTD tracks layed in the front of each other are automatically a line. This is the same in diagonals. But in diagonals, Simutrans has this "problem" with the space between the tracks, and would automatically connect two tracks beneath each other with many little junctions (*g*), if that track is to near to the other. That disturbs ... and the "pull from one track to another to connect"-scheme of Simutrans is unhandy, if you build [verwinkelte] networks, because you can't lay the tracks exactly where you want them, and have to hope, that simutrans chooses the route you thought of.

Or if you want to pull a track from point A to B, and between them is the powerplant C, simutrans would likely build a large [Umweg] around C. If you dislike the new route, you have to destroy it, tile for tile, and those routes may be veery long :(

But I don't mean, that it's the fault of Simutrans, because TTD has it, and Simutrans not, I simply mean that TTD has the better track system of both :wink:

Ok, that wasn't what you requested, but I think you can work with this, too :lol:
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Post by Hajo »

TTD has 64 track combinations, while Simutrans only has 16

This was a decision right from the start of the project. To change that now, means to write Simutrans again - we surely will not do that.

The other side is, that I think the 16 combinations are sufficient to build all kind of networks that you'll need in the game. So even if it's less realistic and less than in TTD I think it's sufficient.

Trains in Simutrans use quite a different routing algorithm than trains in TTD do. They need less guidance by the player. In TTD you use the track combinations to tell the trains where they need to go. Simutrans trains have their own idea where to go, and need less guidance by track constructs. I think that's the reason why Simutrans works well with only 16 track combinations, but TTD needs 64. It's also the reason why TTD players who are used to force trains in a certain direction by clever track constructs just experience problems in Simutrans. In Simutrans the train schedule and one-way signals are the core instruments to guide trains. Switches are vastly irrelevant, the trains know which branch to take.

Also the internal data structures of Simutrans differ quite a lot. That's why two tracks end-to-end connect in TTD while they don't connect in Simutrans.

You can say I made mistakes while designing Simutrans. You are probably right from your point of view as a player.

But I started Simutrans mostly to learn C++ and OOD/OOP. I was a big TTD fan back then (1997), so I used a transport sim as my training project. From that point Simutrans was quite successful. I've learned a lot, not only about program design and coding but also about project management. In that sense Simutrans is a very successful project.

I didn't start the project to create a successor for TTD. Really - back then if you had asked me I'd have said: "impossble".

Simutrans isn't a replacement for TTD and it was most of the time not meant to become one. I know a while I said others, but I've changed my mind - Simutrans currently can't beat TTD in some aspects, and I'm too lazy to change such large areas of it as required.

Anyways, I'm quite surprised how well it evolved and I'm kind of proud what Simutrans became today. If TTD is superior that's ok. But behind TTD only few transport simualtion games can beat Simutrans, and all of them are commercial projects. OpenTTD IMO doesn't count in that competition, because they got a headstart by reusing the TTD code.

I'm very proud that I - being a hobbyist in this regard - could create something that's almost as good as the grandfather and undefeated number one of transport sim games.

If you tell me that TTD has more track combinations than Simutrans has, and that's the reason why you don't play Simutrans, I'll have to accept that.

I've designed Simutrans in a certain manner - mostly with simplicity in mind - and if it is now simpler than TTD in some regard, that's ok for me. E.g. Simutrans was designed with 90 degree geometry in mind. I thought - and still think - diagonal tracks are not needed in a game like this. But players asked me to include diagonal tracks, and I tried to get the best out of the existing structure. Now there are tracks that look diagonal, and with some triockery you can build even long diagonal tracks. But everyone notices that this isn't the thing Simutrans was made for.

User friendliness also was no a priority for me during large stages of the project. It was just a training project for me, so wyh shoudl I care about if other people can use it? If currently the biggest complaint is that Simutrans has "ergonomy problems" that's just because I didn't care much about ergonomy. My goals were different, and the result is, well, quite that what could be expected from my decisions.

Today, I see it from a different point: I see quite a large group of players, and I see that the project isn't just my programming training playground anymore. Most players experience Simutrans as a game in about the same league as TTD, at least they constantly compare it with TTD.

Lately I try to get Simutrans play well in that league, yet I can't undo the decisions of the past. I try to improve the user-friendliness, and I try to expand the features in the game. But the core isn't suitable to replace or supersede TTD in all areas, only in some.

What to do now? I don't know. I still like working on Simutrans, and maybe some day it really will be a competitor for TTD. OpenTTD is a hard challenge. When the TTD source was closed I saw a chance that Simutrans can catch up and supersede TTD, but now that OpenTTD develops quickly, I don't see much chances for Simutrans in that regard.

If OpenTTD was available in 1997, when I was about to start Simutrans, I probably would have joined them. But now I've spend just too much time on Simutrans and I don't want to throw it all away. I'll do what I did the past years: slowly expand Simutrans with new features, and fix the old problems.

So to say: if you have ideas how to improve Simutrans I'll listen. Some things I can't do, some things I don't want to do, and some things I will do.

But if you ask me to let Simutrans become another TTD, I'll say: "no". In that case you're better off playing TTD.

I rather want to develop Simutrans into it's own direction. IMO Simutrans is IMO still too similar to TTD. OTOH it's hard to do a transport sim in a radically different style, so some overlaps will always be there.

'nuff said :)
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Post by Saskia »

I wrote some text, but then a f*** website with many little hateful Java-Applets crashed my browser, so I don't write it again now :x

But I've never said that Simutrans should be like TTD ...
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Hajo
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Post by Hajo »

I just thought, because you showed TTD screenshots as examples how it should be done :)

I took a look at the sketch, but I'm not sure if I understood it right.

I noticed a problem: the new diagonal tracks go through the corners of the tiles. The tracks actually have a width. To draw them correctly, all 4 adjacent tiles must show an appropriate image, while only two actually have tracks on them (in the data structures).

Simutrans can't draw something on a tile that doesn't have something on it related to the image.

Maybe I understood your drawing wrong?
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Post by Saskia »

No, you understood it right, but you could draw track sprites like that:

Code: Select all

   __
  |/\|
  x  x
 /|  |\
/ |  | \
\ |  | /
 \|  |/
  x  x
  |\/|
   --
They would go over the edges of the [rautenförmiges Gitter], but they would meet the end of the next track sprite. Of course you had to use different sprites for different diagonal situations, e.g. diagonal -> straight.
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Post by Tyrell »

sorry for long delay.
Hajo wrote:Sorry, I had to say that. Even if a lot of people now will bever look at Simutrans anymore. I hope it will help to avoid wrong expectations also.
don't worry, no expectations on my part. (was not intended as a critical note)
just found it to be a interesting artical on the general subject at hand.
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Post by Villem »

/me wonders where me can get Light signals for the 64x64, the signals in default simutrans are confusing imo.
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Post by Hajo »

The light signals moved several times. Currently they are available from the Simutrans Wiki pages:

http://www.hajo.simutrans.com/pmwiki/pm ... cellaneous
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