People should read and understand chapters 4-6 of the design document and make comments on them. They can then post these comments in the appropiate thread, before the objective deadline. The comments will then be collected and sorted by the project leaders. Depending on the comment content, they will be discussed with the Design Document creators and possible updates to the Design Document will be created from there.
Members: Hyronymus, Steve
[OBJ] Design Document - Commenting part 2 (finished)
Moderator: Transport Empire Moderators
[OBJ] Design Document - Commenting part 2 (finished)
Last edited by Hyronymus on 23 Sep 2005 16:40, edited 1 time in total.
The design document is currently located here: http://www.tt-forums.net/download.php?id=35198
my comments will follow in about 1 - 2 hours...
my comments will follow in about 1 - 2 hours...
On holiday from 16/07 till 31/07
chapters 4 : generally very good !
-----------------------------------
4.2 : wrong title of sub-chapter. refitting is impossible, and this chapter discusses wait for loading rules
4.4 : "produced by industries from raw materials" add : " or other semi finished products"
4.6 : I don't know why this should be a different cargo type?
Coal with a destination is exactly the same as coal without a destination for all purposes except for transport payment.
So, I'd rather put this as a property of the cargo item itself instead of a total different cargo category.
I think this section can be removed here (the issue of destinations for cargo is settled later in the document)
4.7 : express cargo is indeed a different cargo category (it is not produced by industries).
I'd just rate mail and passengers as 2 different categories.
-> It's not really necessary to make a difference between IC passengers and commuters.
-> Valuables are just "goods", the fact they are high pay, low amount are just settings we have to set for each cargo type. I don't see why they are fundamentally different from other goods.
4.8 : warehouses : I didn't find anything about them on the wiki or in the discussions here. I'll have to think about this one a little more, but I like the concept.
4.9 : I like concept 3 the best. Don't know if we voted for this one yet.
chapter 5 : generally good
---------------------------
5.1 : input storage: please explain "Station/Loading area will accept given cargo if it has input storage within catchment area." I think I understand what you mean, but maybe make the sentence more clear.
rest of the text: good good good !
5.2 : leave the option open for maps that lack certain goods (ie: don't provide/demand missing goods at seaports or warehouses automaticly, but give the map builder the option to set the demand/production of a few port-types himself. So for example you could have an island where ports on the left are bringing in coal and port on the right are bringing in iron, with lots of grain production, but no bananas on the whole map (also not imported through ports)).
5.4 :
same remark as in 5.2, if there is undersupply or oversupply for a cargo, ports should not automaticly try to balance the equation (maybe they can on the easier levels). If you have overproduction, you're stuck with it. If you don't have enough oil/steel, only the most paying industries will be serviced. (= like real life)
About ownership of industries: maybe make this a new section ?
Buying existing industries: always possible?
Building new industries :
=> raw materials : only after succesfull prospecting (see my remark below)
=> producing industires : always possible
=> demand-only industries : never possible (you can't build more people so you can transport more food to them)
About prospecting: this will be "general" and you will not be able to say "put a coal mine exactly here", but rather "search for a suitable coal mine in this area". Price of prospecting would be linear with the area. Game can store (invisible) layers of how suitable each piece of land is for certain raw industries. These layers could be generated by the game or by scenario builders. There is no guaranteed succes even if suitable spots were located in your prospecting area.
5.5 seaports : I guess by now you know my opinion about them: let them have a few possible cargos to supply and a few possbible to demand, but not all cargos and not every port identical.
5.7 we had a few discussions about what influences local authority ratings, I'll have to cross-check them.
5.7 - 5.10 here you use district for 2 different things, one is bigger than a city, one is for small parts of a city. Choose a different name for one of them.
5.9 : residential districts accept "goods, food and water" => you used "goods" as a nominater for all kind of finished goods thoughout the rest of the document. Here you give a small list, just put "all kind of goods" instead like elsewhere.
5.8 - 5.10
the discriptions about what each type of district accepts/produces, why is that necessary ? Aren't it the buildings in the district that dictate this?
did we decide to use districts inside a city? If we didn't decide that, we could just scrap them and let all buildings be built in random order next to each other. This isn't simcity where the player places districts, and it will relieve the city AI from choosing where to put the different districts etc...
5.11 : returnees = good
5.12 : if we skip districts, radiusmin and radiusmax are obsolete too.
production and rate : Earlier you wrote "algebraic formula with 8 inputs and 8 outputs maximum", while here you limit output to 4 and add some kind of rate to it. I like the suggestion in the "producing industries" a lot more. Just put "production formula" here as a field
part6 is about trains, as that is a completely different topic, I'll comment on that later...
-----------------------------------
4.2 : wrong title of sub-chapter. refitting is impossible, and this chapter discusses wait for loading rules
4.4 : "produced by industries from raw materials" add : " or other semi finished products"
4.6 : I don't know why this should be a different cargo type?
Coal with a destination is exactly the same as coal without a destination for all purposes except for transport payment.
So, I'd rather put this as a property of the cargo item itself instead of a total different cargo category.
I think this section can be removed here (the issue of destinations for cargo is settled later in the document)
4.7 : express cargo is indeed a different cargo category (it is not produced by industries).
I'd just rate mail and passengers as 2 different categories.
-> It's not really necessary to make a difference between IC passengers and commuters.
-> Valuables are just "goods", the fact they are high pay, low amount are just settings we have to set for each cargo type. I don't see why they are fundamentally different from other goods.
4.8 : warehouses : I didn't find anything about them on the wiki or in the discussions here. I'll have to think about this one a little more, but I like the concept.
4.9 : I like concept 3 the best. Don't know if we voted for this one yet.
chapter 5 : generally good
---------------------------
5.1 : input storage: please explain "Station/Loading area will accept given cargo if it has input storage within catchment area." I think I understand what you mean, but maybe make the sentence more clear.
rest of the text: good good good !
5.2 : leave the option open for maps that lack certain goods (ie: don't provide/demand missing goods at seaports or warehouses automaticly, but give the map builder the option to set the demand/production of a few port-types himself. So for example you could have an island where ports on the left are bringing in coal and port on the right are bringing in iron, with lots of grain production, but no bananas on the whole map (also not imported through ports)).
5.4 :
same remark as in 5.2, if there is undersupply or oversupply for a cargo, ports should not automaticly try to balance the equation (maybe they can on the easier levels). If you have overproduction, you're stuck with it. If you don't have enough oil/steel, only the most paying industries will be serviced. (= like real life)
About ownership of industries: maybe make this a new section ?
Buying existing industries: always possible?
Building new industries :
=> raw materials : only after succesfull prospecting (see my remark below)
=> producing industires : always possible
=> demand-only industries : never possible (you can't build more people so you can transport more food to them)
About prospecting: this will be "general" and you will not be able to say "put a coal mine exactly here", but rather "search for a suitable coal mine in this area". Price of prospecting would be linear with the area. Game can store (invisible) layers of how suitable each piece of land is for certain raw industries. These layers could be generated by the game or by scenario builders. There is no guaranteed succes even if suitable spots were located in your prospecting area.
5.5 seaports : I guess by now you know my opinion about them: let them have a few possible cargos to supply and a few possbible to demand, but not all cargos and not every port identical.
5.7 we had a few discussions about what influences local authority ratings, I'll have to cross-check them.
5.7 - 5.10 here you use district for 2 different things, one is bigger than a city, one is for small parts of a city. Choose a different name for one of them.
5.9 : residential districts accept "goods, food and water" => you used "goods" as a nominater for all kind of finished goods thoughout the rest of the document. Here you give a small list, just put "all kind of goods" instead like elsewhere.
5.8 - 5.10
the discriptions about what each type of district accepts/produces, why is that necessary ? Aren't it the buildings in the district that dictate this?
did we decide to use districts inside a city? If we didn't decide that, we could just scrap them and let all buildings be built in random order next to each other. This isn't simcity where the player places districts, and it will relieve the city AI from choosing where to put the different districts etc...
5.11 : returnees = good
5.12 : if we skip districts, radiusmin and radiusmax are obsolete too.
production and rate : Earlier you wrote "algebraic formula with 8 inputs and 8 outputs maximum", while here you limit output to 4 and add some kind of rate to it. I like the suggestion in the "producing industries" a lot more. Just put "production formula" here as a field
part6 is about trains, as that is a completely different topic, I'll comment on that later...
On holiday from 16/07 till 31/07
By request: my comments. Chapter 6 needs some more commenting, I've reached paragraph 6.2 sofar.
- Attachments
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- Comments on DD [Chapter 4-6.2].doc
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First remark : I thought we were going to do a more freeform method than the 4 directions system you show here.
All my comments below are in disregard of this 4 direction system and with the assumption of freeform track. This means some sentences in chapter 6 were ignored. I'll put an arrow (->) before comments and a hash (#) before sentences I ignored.
6.1 track definition
-> masts & shader : this is about graphical representation of the track, we should only have 1 pointer to the 3d model & texture of 1 track segment. It will allow more freedom and modabillity than "masts yes/no".
6.2 track directions and building
# Internally game uses 4 directions for track – edge to edge (e2e) and vertex to vertex (v2v). These are stored and processed into smooth looking track with wide curves.
-> right of way : players should be able to choose how much extra land they want to buy around the tracks (ie: nothing for a small cheap single track line, a lot for a main line you're intending to expand soon)
-> construction approval by LA's : do this before any money is spent (ie: in the planning fase). You don't want to build a long railroad only to find the destination city won't allow your station
# Curves are created when two track types – v2v and e2e are laid in the same tile.
# Maximum two track elements might be laid on a single tile. Two v2v or e2e tracks create a crossing. Combination of e2e with v2v creates a curve or a switch – depending on neighbouring tiles
6.3 track grades
-> terrain too steep to climb : we decided to always let trains run at a minimum speed of 1 kph to remove issues of locked trains (makes it easier for the player, but most importantly makes it easier for the game engine too)
-> formulas for tractive/braking effort : this is not something to be put in the DD
6.4 track switches
6.5 track curves
-> no need to explicitly name the algorithms to use for smoothing the curves, so we can change the algorithms if we want
6.6 track signals
-> I don't understand the text explanation of 2-way signals, but the image is clear enough.
-> one way signals : do we want to incorporate something like PBS ? (I don't think the signals topic has been discussed by our team yet?)
6.7 parallel track
-> just treat everything as single track but provide an intuitve functionallity to add a parallel track to an existing track. In-game everything can be considered single track, they just happen to be next to each other.
6.8 stations
6.9 stations platform
#platforms are always built on a single tile (thus service a single section of track – either v2v or e2e). Platform can be built on double, triple and quad track.
-> it would be the easiest if platforms are build first, with maybe a configuration utillity (like: "container loading/unloading for 6 parallel tracks, 400m long" or "passenger and mail loading/unloading for 12 tracks, 100 m long". Then you can put this pre-fab station on the map and connect the station tracks to your existing track.
6.10 train turn around
-> maybe only possible in stations that have the "turntable" extension building (or very slow otherwise) ?
-> ghost mode : don't make it default, a lot of people complain about that in RT2 / RT3
6.11 workshops
-> see this voting result : http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=245252#245252
service station and depot combined. This is one addon for a station. When a train stops at this station, it can be serviced while (or between) loading/unloading. These addons also have a visible piece of track that can be connected to your other tracks, if it is connected, you can buy trains here.
(in my opinion, we don't need the physical track connection between depot and station to buy a train, but that's only my own opinion)
6.12 rolling stock definitions
-> why the difference between "vehicle" and "model" part ?
A general comment after 6 (5) chapters : I don't really like these lists of properties for all kind of entities in the design document. well, I do find them usefull to get a better understanding of what you want to explain, but the design document is something we will almost never change, while these properties might chance when the game evolves.
All my comments below are in disregard of this 4 direction system and with the assumption of freeform track. This means some sentences in chapter 6 were ignored. I'll put an arrow (->) before comments and a hash (#) before sentences I ignored.
6.1 track definition
-> masts & shader : this is about graphical representation of the track, we should only have 1 pointer to the 3d model & texture of 1 track segment. It will allow more freedom and modabillity than "masts yes/no".
6.2 track directions and building
# Internally game uses 4 directions for track – edge to edge (e2e) and vertex to vertex (v2v). These are stored and processed into smooth looking track with wide curves.
-> right of way : players should be able to choose how much extra land they want to buy around the tracks (ie: nothing for a small cheap single track line, a lot for a main line you're intending to expand soon)
-> construction approval by LA's : do this before any money is spent (ie: in the planning fase). You don't want to build a long railroad only to find the destination city won't allow your station
# Curves are created when two track types – v2v and e2e are laid in the same tile.
# Maximum two track elements might be laid on a single tile. Two v2v or e2e tracks create a crossing. Combination of e2e with v2v creates a curve or a switch – depending on neighbouring tiles
6.3 track grades
-> terrain too steep to climb : we decided to always let trains run at a minimum speed of 1 kph to remove issues of locked trains (makes it easier for the player, but most importantly makes it easier for the game engine too)
-> formulas for tractive/braking effort : this is not something to be put in the DD
6.4 track switches
6.5 track curves
-> no need to explicitly name the algorithms to use for smoothing the curves, so we can change the algorithms if we want
6.6 track signals
-> I don't understand the text explanation of 2-way signals, but the image is clear enough.
-> one way signals : do we want to incorporate something like PBS ? (I don't think the signals topic has been discussed by our team yet?)
6.7 parallel track
-> just treat everything as single track but provide an intuitve functionallity to add a parallel track to an existing track. In-game everything can be considered single track, they just happen to be next to each other.
6.8 stations
6.9 stations platform
#platforms are always built on a single tile (thus service a single section of track – either v2v or e2e). Platform can be built on double, triple and quad track.
-> it would be the easiest if platforms are build first, with maybe a configuration utillity (like: "container loading/unloading for 6 parallel tracks, 400m long" or "passenger and mail loading/unloading for 12 tracks, 100 m long". Then you can put this pre-fab station on the map and connect the station tracks to your existing track.
6.10 train turn around
-> maybe only possible in stations that have the "turntable" extension building (or very slow otherwise) ?
-> ghost mode : don't make it default, a lot of people complain about that in RT2 / RT3
6.11 workshops
-> see this voting result : http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=245252#245252
service station and depot combined. This is one addon for a station. When a train stops at this station, it can be serviced while (or between) loading/unloading. These addons also have a visible piece of track that can be connected to your other tracks, if it is connected, you can buy trains here.
(in my opinion, we don't need the physical track connection between depot and station to buy a train, but that's only my own opinion)
6.12 rolling stock definitions
-> why the difference between "vehicle" and "model" part ?
A general comment after 6 (5) chapters : I don't really like these lists of properties for all kind of entities in the design document. well, I do find them usefull to get a better understanding of what you want to explain, but the design document is something we will almost never change, while these properties might chance when the game evolves.
On holiday from 16/07 till 31/07
-
uzurpator
- Transport Empire Moderator
- Posts: 2178
- Joined: 10 Jan 2003 12:21
- Location: Katowice, Poland
PJT:
If I didn't comment - I accepted
4.6 - 'Manifest' cargo is the name for the cargo in question. In the game it is represented by boxcars, tankers, platforms etc - but it is all 'Manifest'.
Eg: Station waiting cargo list may look like this:
Coal - 240 tonnes
Ore - 182 tonnes
Manifest - 450 tonnes
4.7 - destinction between commuters and IC is necessary to control in/outbound passanger movement.
Valuables are 'special' as they would be carried by vehicles that are too damn fast to be considered freight. For railroads - this may include dropping a valueables car on the end of the TGV train.
Besides - these cargo classes are arbitary - the game works on the basis of types and subtypes. Classes (as raw, goods etc) are just for design purposes. Ferinstance:
Inter City Passanger - express class is really: Type: PSGR Sub: IC PSGR.
Coal - raw material class is really: Type: Hopper Sub: Coal
4.9 That is also my preferred mode.
Simply:
Create a route
Plan a consist for this route
Order building x copies of the consist, and let it go
Modification to the consist would modify all trains - as they would be replaced as they visit depots.
5.1 Industries are like cities - they have buildings with different functions. Some accept cargo, some produce, some store finished products. To accept given cargo a station must have at least one of the accepting buildings in the catchment area (just like in ttd - you need 8/8 of buildings to accept goods, passangers or somesuch).
Likewise with getting the goods - for finished products to appear on the station at least one 'output storage' building storing finished products must be within the station catchment area.
5.8-5.10
Good point about acceptance on building level (altho acceptance on district level might also be needed).
The distinction of different districts is to avoid situations when industrial buildings adjoin local houses. Also different districts have different needs - thus require different transport. For example in bigger cities it might be beneficial to run commuters. And IRL buildings of certain types are claustered.
5.12 - reworked the definition
6 - general
yes - we were going to use the more freeform method. I kind of forgotten about that, esp since FRD didn't mention it.
6.1 - shader is a pointer to the texture... with the bonus from the fact, that shader may define 20 layer texture with alpha blending and animation...
masts - mmm, yes. But since mast is not uniform, wouldn't it be better to simply allow the player to choose one of the styles of the masts, instead of forcing them upon the track?
6.3 - you misunderstood. We will simply not allow the track to be laid on an incline bigger then 2%. (altho I think we ought to leave it to the desinger which incline is too steep for the track to be laid - rack rail may go up 10% no probs
)
6.5 there is no other choice
Only beizer or b-splines
6.6 PBS is kind of default for me
6.7 That is not as easy as it sounds. Parallel track will save some work for the pathfinder, and for some mundane tasks like singal placing. Unless we make it so, that there is no actual pathfinder, and the player designs the route - I vote for claustering tracks.
6.9 since tracks will be rewritten, so will be platforms
6.10 ghosting is manual - never happens automatically (altho i can imagine at least one situation where auto-ghost is really beneficial)
6.11 Isn't that poll precisely what I have written?
6.12 Steam locomotive is composed of two parts:
Loco - providing power, speed, tractive effort etc
Tender - basicly dead weight
'vehicle' part is for properties that are for the whole vehicle (by vehicle i mean that 4 car EMU also), models part is for each seperate carriage/car the vehicle is composed of.
Expect a big update to the railroad sections in the nearest DD revision.
BTW - DD will never be actually finished - it will grow on the project just like the project will assume the shape defined in the DD. Otherwise we will discuss stuff ad infinitum.
Hyro: since your comments are usually grammar and spelling - I'll abstain from commenting them. I'll simply take what is appropiate.
EDIT:
And cargoes is a proper british-english
If I didn't comment - I accepted
4.6 - 'Manifest' cargo is the name for the cargo in question. In the game it is represented by boxcars, tankers, platforms etc - but it is all 'Manifest'.
Eg: Station waiting cargo list may look like this:
Coal - 240 tonnes
Ore - 182 tonnes
Manifest - 450 tonnes
4.7 - destinction between commuters and IC is necessary to control in/outbound passanger movement.
Valuables are 'special' as they would be carried by vehicles that are too damn fast to be considered freight. For railroads - this may include dropping a valueables car on the end of the TGV train.
Besides - these cargo classes are arbitary - the game works on the basis of types and subtypes. Classes (as raw, goods etc) are just for design purposes. Ferinstance:
Inter City Passanger - express class is really: Type: PSGR Sub: IC PSGR.
Coal - raw material class is really: Type: Hopper Sub: Coal
4.9 That is also my preferred mode.
Simply:
Create a route
Plan a consist for this route
Order building x copies of the consist, and let it go
Modification to the consist would modify all trains - as they would be replaced as they visit depots.
5.1 Industries are like cities - they have buildings with different functions. Some accept cargo, some produce, some store finished products. To accept given cargo a station must have at least one of the accepting buildings in the catchment area (just like in ttd - you need 8/8 of buildings to accept goods, passangers or somesuch).
Likewise with getting the goods - for finished products to appear on the station at least one 'output storage' building storing finished products must be within the station catchment area.
5.8-5.10
Good point about acceptance on building level (altho acceptance on district level might also be needed).
The distinction of different districts is to avoid situations when industrial buildings adjoin local houses. Also different districts have different needs - thus require different transport. For example in bigger cities it might be beneficial to run commuters. And IRL buildings of certain types are claustered.
5.12 - reworked the definition
6 - general
yes - we were going to use the more freeform method. I kind of forgotten about that, esp since FRD didn't mention it.
6.1 - shader is a pointer to the texture... with the bonus from the fact, that shader may define 20 layer texture with alpha blending and animation...
masts - mmm, yes. But since mast is not uniform, wouldn't it be better to simply allow the player to choose one of the styles of the masts, instead of forcing them upon the track?
6.3 - you misunderstood. We will simply not allow the track to be laid on an incline bigger then 2%. (altho I think we ought to leave it to the desinger which incline is too steep for the track to be laid - rack rail may go up 10% no probs
)6.5 there is no other choice
Only beizer or b-splines6.6 PBS is kind of default for me
6.7 That is not as easy as it sounds. Parallel track will save some work for the pathfinder, and for some mundane tasks like singal placing. Unless we make it so, that there is no actual pathfinder, and the player designs the route - I vote for claustering tracks.
6.9 since tracks will be rewritten, so will be platforms
6.10 ghosting is manual - never happens automatically (altho i can imagine at least one situation where auto-ghost is really beneficial)
6.11 Isn't that poll precisely what I have written?
6.12 Steam locomotive is composed of two parts:
Loco - providing power, speed, tractive effort etc
Tender - basicly dead weight
'vehicle' part is for properties that are for the whole vehicle (by vehicle i mean that 4 car EMU also), models part is for each seperate carriage/car the vehicle is composed of.
Expect a big update to the railroad sections in the nearest DD revision.
BTW - DD will never be actually finished - it will grow on the project just like the project will assume the shape defined in the DD. Otherwise we will discuss stuff ad infinitum.
Hyro: since your comments are usually grammar and spelling - I'll abstain from commenting them. I'll simply take what is appropiate.
EDIT:
Featured discussion about psgr destinations -> Wiki.I don’t understand a thing about Returnees and when they were invented. Did I miss something?
And cargoes is a proper british-english
All art and vehicle stats I authored for TT and derivatives are as of now PUBLIC DOMAIN! Use as you see fit
Just say NO to the TT fan-art sprite licensing madness. Public domain your art as well.
Just say NO to the TT fan-art sprite licensing madness. Public domain your art as well.
Uzurpator, that's fine. I just don't dare to dig any deeper as people with proper understanding of possible programming problems do. But I did find some stuff in chapter 6 that were new to me. Perhaps you can check that.
BTW: when would be a good time for you to meet with Steve and me to discuss the first commenting part?
BTW: when would be a good time for you to meet with Steve and me to discuss the first commenting part?
-
uzurpator
- Transport Empire Moderator
- Posts: 2178
- Joined: 10 Jan 2003 12:21
- Location: Katowice, Poland
Next IRC meeting IF SOMEONE WILL REMIND ME VIA PM 20 timesHyronymus wrote:BTW: when would be a good time for you to meet with Steve and me to discuss the first commenting part?
All art and vehicle stats I authored for TT and derivatives are as of now PUBLIC DOMAIN! Use as you see fit
Just say NO to the TT fan-art sprite licensing madness. Public domain your art as well.
Just say NO to the TT fan-art sprite licensing madness. Public domain your art as well.
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