YAPF - Testers needed!

Wolf01 · Post by **Wolf01** » 05 Jun 2006 20:25

it is because you used 2 way signals, if you usa one way signals the train waits at the signal of the right branch (but you have to use roro stations)

pshemko · Post by **pshemko** » 05 Jun 2006 22:22

I think i found another problem:

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     D             
-s---X--S-PPPPPPP2
-s---X--S-PPPPPPP1

D - depot
S - signal (two way)
s - signal (one way)
P - platform.

If i have a train in platform one and i send it to the depot I can't send the second train (in the second platform) to the depot (message: can't find path to the depot) until the two way signal changes to green, which is really annoying, especially on busy terminus stations.

AdeV · Post by **AdeV** » 06 Jun 2006 16:29

This is a ridiculous track.... but YAPF stops using the inner tracks too soon, resulting in the logjam shown.

To reproduce: Load the save-file, then set all but 2 trains going from the depot (to seize it up sooner, send them all out).

Wolf01 · Post by **Wolf01** » 06 Jun 2006 17:11

strange, i always tought that with YAPF trains will choose the track which has less signals if both tracks are of the same lenght and bring to the same point (like your screenshot)

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 06 Jun 2006 22:00

OK, guys, i see that devs were right that users will get confused and will not understand how the two-way signals work with YAPF. If the first two way signal (first from the current train position) is red, then it is treated as NO-WAY. If you have troubles with it, switch that behavior off:

in the config file (section [yapf]) find the following line:

Code: Select all

rail_firstred_twoway_eol = true

and change it to:

Code: Select all

rail_firstred_twoway_eol = false

and then tell me if it helped. thanks

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 06 Jun 2006 22:02

Wolf01: there is no penalty for green signals. Only red ones from the first 10 signals generate path cost penalty by default.

Darkvater · Post by **Darkvater** » 06 Jun 2006 22:02

I have a pretty stupid bug here. Build a depot without any connected roads, then a bus and then start that bus. Click on the bus and try to send it to the depot; it will say it cannot find the route to the depot. It becomes really hard to sell such a vehicle when you cannot send/stop it in the depot. Don't ask me how, but the user did it again

.

Desired behaviour: find depot from inside the depot, just like with NPF.

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 06 Jun 2006 22:07

AdeV: try to make all 4 paths identical - i.e. 12 signals on each with the same layout (distances). Red signals will get penalty so trains will balance between paths.

pshemko · Post by **pshemko** » 06 Jun 2006 22:09

KUDr wrote:OK, guys, i see that devs were right that users will get confused and will not understand how the two-way signals work with YAPF. If the first two way signal (first from the current train position) is red, then it is treated as NO-WAY. If you have troubles with it, switch that behavior off:

I guess that's not about being confused about the way it works but rather about expecting different behaviour - if the train is next to the depot and I hit 'go to a depot' button it shouldn't display a message that it can't find a way - that's what's confusing.

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 06 Jun 2006 22:09

Darkvater: yes, finally something that looks like real bug. Will look at it. thanks

XeryusTC · Post by **XeryusTC** » 06 Jun 2006 22:13

KUDr wrote:OK, guys, i see that devs were right that users will get confused and will not understand how the two-way signals work with YAPF. If the first two way signal (first from the current train position) is red, then it is treated as NO-WAY.

Actually, I'm happy with this behaviour, it allows me to "override" YAPF's standard balancing with my own balancing

.

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 06 Jun 2006 22:16

pshemko: it is only logical consequence. And you expect something else because you either don't understand what NO-WAY or DEAD-END means or you don't know that first red signal is treated as dead-end by default. This is what i meant with "confused". I agree, that if you don't know it, it can seem to behave incorrectly.

edit: and maybe i should change the first-red-signal behavior so, that if there was no junction (choice) between train and signal, the DEAD-END will not apply. Would it be better?

pshemko · Post by **pshemko** » 06 Jun 2006 22:55

KUDr wrote:pshemko: it is only logical consequence. And you expect something else because you either don't understand what NO-WAY or DEAD-END means or you don't know that first red signal is treated as dead-end by default. This is what i meant with "confused". I agree, that if you don't know it, it can seem to behave incorrectly.[/qoute]

It's like with my windows box when I bought a new printer - I've installed the driver, windows told me that everything was fine, but when I tried to print it was complaining it couldn't communicate with the printer

I believe that when most users clik 'go to a depot' button they expect the train to find a way if there is one, even if this requires waiting at a red signal. Just my 2c

KUDr wrote: edit: and maybe i should change the first-red-signal behavior so, that if there was no junction (choice) between train and signal, the DEAD-END will not apply. Would it be better?

I think that it would be. If there is only one way, even if it's blocked it should be chosen - there is no other alternative.

Beside - I didn't notice this problem with 'regular' pathfinding - ie when a train wants to leave a terminus station to get to the next one it doesn't complain about the 'lack of path' - just patiently waits.

Now i'm only waiting for 'track reservation' - pbs like

sidew · Post by **sidew** » 13 Jun 2006 13:28

A question: is possible to add the option to forbid 90 degree turns, like the actual option for NPF?

XeryusTC · Post by **XeryusTC** » 13 Jun 2006 14:05

There is one, enable NPF and disable 90 degree turns, it will also work with YAPF.

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 14 Jun 2006 21:00

sidew: it works also with YAPF (and better, you don't need to switch NPF on). It was dependent on the NPF settings before. The current version in trunk doesn't need that. There is only wrong text ("requires NPF") in the GUI.

sidew · Post by **sidew** » 14 Jun 2006 21:45

KUDr wrote:There is only wrong text ("requires NPF") in the GUI.

Thanks

sc79 · Post by **sc79** » 17 Jun 2006 11:26

OK, guys, i see that devs were right that users will get confused and will not understand how the two-way signals work with YAPF. If the first two way signal (first from the current train position) is red, then it is treated as NO-WAY. If you have troubles with it, switch that behavior off:

in the config file (section [yapf]) find the following line:
rail_firstred_twoway_eol = true
and change it to:
rail_firstred_twoway_eol = false
and then tell me if it helped. thanks

Firstly, changing that setting has zero effect on the setup in the screenshot, which doesnt work because the EOL code forces the train into the depot. Im assuming with it set to false, the train should ignore the depot and wait at the red signal. I do wonder if having to turn that off for what is, imo, a silly pathfinding decision, will mean losing functionality in other layouts; but I havent been playing with YAPF enough yet.

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 21 Jun 2006 08:40

sc79: i don't know what silly decision you are talking about. But in your railway design the change mentioned will help. Try to change it in config and then start new game (don't load existing savegame, where the old config was saved and will override the new one), or change the setting using console. Advanced users can use the default yapf behavior for better optimizing their network, but yes, in such cases as yours it can be disturbing. For such users as you are, the recommended setting change should help. Or you can change your signal to pre-signal and add one exit signal between it and depot.

Or simply make your railway design better - place your depot close to the station (on crossing) and use two-way exit signals at the station and one way signals for connecting it to your network.

You cannot ask me to support all stupid railway designs - i can always show you many other stupid designs that will not work with any pathfinder.

And arguing that with some other pathfinder it does what you want, but with yapf it does something else will lead nowhere. Then only what i can tell you is to either:
- use another pathfinder
- use recommended config setting on new game to change its behavior
- learn more about how it works and how you can benefit from it

btw: the same as on your pic you can see with TTDP. This feature was there in original TTD too. It should help to prevent dead-locks when two trains would decide to pass the same signal from opposite directions. It also allows many advanced features such as waiting loops and so on.

edit: using the game console you can switch it off during gameplay - with immediate effect:

patch yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol 0

R2 · Post by R2 » 09 Jul 2006 14:03

What really would be great was a pathfinding that makes trains not change course if not needed. Look at the station picture: I want that train to move straight over that junction even though the way to that platform is a bit longer. When there will be PBS with YAPF such behaviour just brakes other trains.

The trains on the picture is supposed to unload and than pick the slope at the upper left end of the picture where you can see the other trains coming out of the depot. With current pathfindung, it crosses all slopes when coming from the bridge to get to platform 1 and then crossing all slopes again to get out of the station's peripherie.

Trains simply shouldn't change their slope as long as they haven't to, even though they need to go a slightly longer distance: Look the small picture, there is no need at all to change the slope.

Will this be fixed?

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