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is the "feature list" decided upon for 0.5.0? Or will we get a few more features with RC2 and/or the final release of 0.5.0, whenever that may be?

maartena wrote:is the "feature list" decided upon for 0.5.0? Or will we get a few more features with RC2 and/or the final release of 0.5.0, whenever that may be?

No more features for the final of 0.5.0. Any new 'features' going in are considered bugs or improvements to annoying/confusing behaviour.

Its a shame about the timing of Bridge over a lot of things then, Its a feature that I've wanted for a while...

You know, not being able to build over diagonal track could be classed as annoying/confusing behavour

peter1138 wrote:

SirkoZ wrote:Very few useful additions, mostly code clean-up from what I gather.

Since 0.4.8... Let's take out YAPF, elrails, newstations, no date restrictions, more languages and unicode, and many more things...

Perhaps you didn't read the changelog.

As I said - nothing really useful, except for map-generator/airports patches from the MiniIN.

SirkoZ wrote:As I said - nothing really useful, except for map-generator/airports patches from the MiniIN.

Why don't you go play miniIN then and stop bothering us?
Only a handful people play the version you are referring to, so to about 98% of the userbase, this version is indeed a new game with lots of new features. Put a sock in it, ok.

Nice to see new stations implemented with v0.5.0, however there is a small problem with station variable 45 (Rail continuation info), in particular the high byte, it returns 0 for bits 2 and 3 (the ones used) in CanStn. That is the reason why some station parts do not display correctly, see sample below.

Sprite Limit Increase - I know it has been talked about, but if I were an OpenTTD dev I would make that top priority. The best game is worth nothing, if you cannot load GRFs because of the sprite limit. Having a mere 11'700 sprites (excluding 5'100 base sprites) available will not be enough for future releases of the Canadian Stations and Train sets. ATM, I can just load v0.3 of CanStn and CanSet but absolutely nothing else. Once we are finished it will be the one or the other only, not very satisfactory.

BTW, v0.2c of the Canadian Stations Set will shortly be released, just a minor update; it has a few updates for OpenTTD players, too. like disabled waypoints and menu options look a bit nicer. They have not been implemented, but are mere place holders for v0.3.

Darkvater wrote:

SirkoZ wrote:As I said - nothing really useful, except for map-generator/airports patches from the MiniIN.

Why don't you go play miniIN then and stop bothering us?
Only a handful people play the version you are referring to, so to about 98% of the userbase, this version is indeed a new game with lots of new features. Put a sock in it, ok.

Now read this you pompous fraud - the most part of bettering the OTTD - are the peoples patches, not your code rearanging.
What-ever do you think you are if you know some programming language?
Anyone who is well versed in C can be a project lead (e.g. you).
So better get a grip or just leave this project be - better people will come by - be sure of that.
So until you include all the things there are in MiniIN into OpenTTD be sure you will read from me. Every time.

Now if you and other developers (you all are not excluded from this rant by a long shot) were to cooperate with people, that want to fix/improve OTTD - there would be no need for my sharp posts. Screw your heads on straight, stop clinging on that IRC channel and reply to PM's on the Forum aswel. Many of the players who long ago wrote some quality patches have long given up because of your non-existent cooperation and claims "we have to clean up the code first then we'll look into possibly including your work". That's a bunch of crap. Nothing yet and you dare call it a 0.5.0?!
Again - get real or get out.

I'm looking forward to some of your/developers' or players' uber-smart replies or non-existance thereof.

SirkoZ wrote:Again - get real or get out.

Hear hear!

Getting personal and name calling only serves to get official warnings and lowers respect from others.

The subject seems to generate friction between some people, whereas it needn't. Just remember, the MiniIN has never been an official release, but has always co-existed with them, peacefully, as have it's users.

There's never any need for any harsh words. If you have a problem with a user - developer or otherwise, use the Private Messaging feature or take the conflict off the board altogether.

SirkoZ wrote:I'm looking forward to some of your/developers' or players' uber-smart replies or non-existance thereof.

I'm sure after you finished typing your post, you sat down and patted yourself on the back and congratulated yourself. Good for you. No seriously, thats exactly the type of post we need to see in a community more. Everyone playing everyone else off, people abusing developers, that sort of thing. Thats super cool.

You're a goddamned hero.

Now, I'm not an OTTD player, developer or moderator, although I am a global moderator, I don't usually stick my head into places I don't understand.

Your post, is, to be completely honest, appalling on every level.

You have no respect for (and I believe everyone else out there who has been here long enough to see who works with a community and who just takes and abuses, will support me on this comment) your betters. Darkvater is one of the most level headed, and respectable OTTD chaps I have ever met, and to see anyone talk to him in that fashion disgusts me.

Not to mention your nice little comments about including all developers in your little rant. I didn't realise that you had bowled into a store and PURCHASED a copy of OTTD, thus giving you licence as a CUSTOMER to demand anything. Oh, you didn't? Sorry about that, because I don't care if you're the king of england, that kind of attitude is disgusting.

I'm demanding you immediatly apologise to Darkvater, the other devs, and indeed the community as a whole, becuase you don't have a leg to stand on.

Again - get real or get out.

I could say the same to you. Play nice, or go home.

I'll leave it up to an OTTD moderator/developer chap to give you an official warning, becuase, you don't deserve to participate in such a fine community with such a great group of people. Not at all.

Rai out.

OzTransLtd wrote:Nice to see new stations implemented with v0.5.0, however there is a small problem with station variable 45 (Rail continuation info), in particular the high byte, it returns 0 for bits 2 and 3 (the ones used) in CanStn.

Confession... I forgot to implement var 45 Looking at it now...

Edit: And now it works. Hopefully this can be backported to 0.5.0.

I'm not going to descend to SirkoZ's level with namecalling and stuff.

SirkoZ wrote:the most part of bettering the OTTD - are the peoples patches, not your code rearanging

I don't think people would be interested in this game if all sorts of patches just got added and nobody cleaned up the code. The result would be really messy code, so nobody would be able to write new big features and it would be almost impossible to go bug hunting. As a result, no new great features would be coded and the game would crash or desync at random.

I think this issue is like the Y2K bug. It was fixed almost everywhere and then people said that it was a waste of time and money to do so because nothing happened. If nothing was done, then people would be upset that a whole lot of stuff broke.

Bjarni wrote:I'm not going to descend to SirkoZ's level with namecalling and stuff.

SirkoZ wrote:the most part of bettering the OTTD - are the peoples patches, not your code rearanging

I don't think people would be interested in this game if all sorts of patches just got added and nobody cleaned up the code. The result would be really messy code, so nobody would be able to write new big features and it would be almost impossible to go bug hunting. As a result, no new great features would be coded and the game would crash or desync at random.

I think this issue is like the Y2K bug. It was fixed almost everywhere and then people said that it was a waste of time and money to do so because nothing happened. If nothing was done, then people would be upset that a whole lot of stuff broke.

Fine - stay on your high pedestal. However you are messing up what could be a great game which ordinary players (98%) don't have any idea of (sadly).

Wow, I can honestly say I don't think I've ever seen a forum post that reeks quite so much of spoilt brat as Sirkoz's post.

Well done, you downloaded a free piece of software that didn't do quite what you wanted. Boo hoo. What's next on your list of stuff to complain about? You going to call the Samaritans and yell at them because they didn't answer the phone the way you wanted? Or maybe you can write a snotty letter to the red cross because they didn't come round to your house to put a plaster on your grazed knee.

Let's keep it polite shall we, or I shall be forced to (ab)use my godly powers and move this whole thing into the spam bin.

SirkoZ wrote:

Bjarni wrote:I'm not going to descend to SirkoZ's level with namecalling and stuff.

SirkoZ wrote:the most part of bettering the OTTD - are the peoples patches, not your code rearanging

I don't think people would be interested in this game if all sorts of patches just got added and nobody cleaned up the code. The result would be really messy code, so nobody would be able to write new big features and it would be almost impossible to go bug hunting. As a result, no new great features would be coded and the game would crash or desync at random.

I think this issue is like the Y2K bug. It was fixed almost everywhere and then people said that it was a waste of time and money to do so because nothing happened. If nothing was done, then people would be upset that a whole lot of stuff broke.

Fine - stay on your high pedestal. However you are messing up what could be a great game which ordinary players (98%) don't have any idea of (sadly).

Ok, I'm gonna keep this post calm because I respect Darkvater and the work he and his crew have done to OTTD. Sirkoz, that post was not necessary. This is a game you can play for free and the devs are doing what they thing is right. Which is ok, because they're making it better and anyway, it is their free project which we can all enjoy. I hope you think about this a little Sirkoz.

Thanks for the game, devs,
Gamezguy.

Although the features I would have liked in 0.5rc1 aren't there. There's certainly a lot of improvement, and I'm happy with that. So, thanks devs.

I would hate seeing every mini-in feature being added to the trunk, since frankly mini-in is very unstable. And 0.5 RC1 have all features i want for now, save for NewHouses/NewIndustries/NewCargo, subsidaries patch and daylength patch. (and it's understandable why the last two aren't in trunk as the last two have some... oddball behaviours and bugs.)

It will be intresting to see how long I stick to the stable 0.5 for now, until I start using the nightlies again. Probably when newIndustries are in...

I agree theres been some pretty bad noise about this topic. I also have quite a split opinion about all this.
For one thing, I agree that a clean, working code is crucial to be able to support new features on top of it. on the other hand, there are lots of truly brilliant patches out there (daylength, signalGUI, mass orders.. etc) which would make a big hit in gameplay experience, and currently the soon-to-be-no-more MiniIN is the only release which features at least some of them.
The problem is, the development forum springs lots of great ideas, which also are shown working, but eventually you end up watching at least 80% of them die because they are never committed. Im not in the know about why they are rejected, but if code-cleanup is the reason, then one thing needs to be said:
The OTTD team then would need to focus on the following: Use all available manpower to create clean, working code, which supports a base featureset (like, big things like the new map array done, since this may be important for many patches, or full implementation of newGRF - which is already running), and then add stuff on top of it. maybe consider taking others on the team to speed this process up - but the situation right now looks to /me/ (Im only speaking for myself here), as if OTTD was in a state where patches just cant be added due to needed code cleanup - but this harms the developer community, imo. having lots of good patches out there which eventually die is kinda.. wasted effort.

Sure, Open TTD stands for Open Source - but who ever applies the patches save for the patch devs themselves and a small minority who knows how to compile?also.. these patched .exes are hardly ever released - its in 99% of the cases the .diff or .patch file. so right now its more like.. "yeah, we´re open source, but if you change anything, its pretty useless for anyone but yourself.."

Well, maybe it's a good idea for patchers to request a svn branch if they believe their patch to be stable enough to be let into the wild, maybe it's also a good idea to add all branches to the compile farm. So nightlies of those patches can be released too. That would allow more people access to the patches and makes life easier for the developer of the patch...

note: Shouldn't this discussion be held in another thread? I thought this thread was about the rc1 of openttd 0.5, not about development policy. imho if you've got criticism of the development policy, post it in the openttd development or openttd problems section in its own thread, so the developers can take a look at it there and talk about it there.