v0.5: "train is lost"

Seal · Post by **Seal** » 27 Dec 2006 11:38

Hi,

I installed 0.5 of OpenTTD Yesterday and found that trains get lost very easily.

I'm was using a very simple track, 1 station to another, double rail sometimes with signposts (double) on the entrance/exit of the double rail areas.

This used to work fine, now I get messages about trains being lost.

Anyone else experiencing this?

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Seal

Post by **Rubidium** » 27 Dec 2006 11:43

Please post the savegame where this occurs.

Darkvater · Post by **Darkvater** » 27 Dec 2006 12:52

Very stupid question; but did you give orders to your trains?

richk67 · Post by **richk67** » 27 Dec 2006 13:59

I was getting it really regularly as well on Brianetta's RC1 server. I had a long straight mainline, and trains would often whine about being lost even though they made 1 round trip/year. In the end I put in some waypoints to shut them up.

I'll dig out an autosave later.

MagicBuzz · Post by **MagicBuzz** » 27 Dec 2006 14:19

Another stupid question : normaly, the "lost train" feature check the train route every xxx days.

Is your train able to join a route checkpoint in this interval ?

Let's say : the "lost train" feature seems to be very simple. It doesn't actually check the train finding path, it just check it crossed a route checkepoint in the last xxx days.

So if you enable the feature with "30 days" and your train needs 50 days to join it's station, you'll get a message about train is lost but it doesn't really.

Just put a higher value for this option. 90 or 120 days is ok for big maps.

Seal · Post by **Seal** » 27 Dec 2006 14:59

Yes, the train had orders

Some more info that might help:

I have depots just outside the stations, so before (when going from the station) the signals. It appears that the train waits for the signal a bit (another train is occupying the single rail area), then turns around, goes to the depot, says "train is lost".

Shouldn't it continue waiting at the signal until the other train is beyond a signal and continue running along when the signal goes green?

I've tried experimenting with single side signals as well, but I'm not very good at that

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Seal

MagicBuzz · Post by **MagicBuzz** » 27 Dec 2006 15:13

what is the servicing interval ? may be your train just go back to the nearest depot because it's time to service ?

Seal · Post by **Seal** » 27 Dec 2006 15:18

100 days.

But even if that would be the case, why does it raise a dialog saying "train is lost"? I get this with multiple trains and it's getting annoying.

Thanks for the replies so far.

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Seal

MagicBuzz · Post by **MagicBuzz** » 27 Dec 2006 15:29

imagine you train needs 100 days to reach the destination station.
10 days before reaching it, the train detects it needs servicing.
the closer depot it finds it the depot that is near the departure station.
so it goes back to this depot. then it should reach it in 90 days, so it's 180 after the last station was visited.
if the "lost train" feature is enabled with 120 days interval, it detects the train didn't reach a station during 120 days, so it says you the train is lost, as it was unable to reach any station for 120 days.

i really think it's somethinglike this that happens.

maartena · Post by **maartena** » 27 Dec 2006 20:23

I noticed that I got the "train is lost" message as soon as (or within 5 seconds of) me removing some track to rebuild a station entrance. I was on my own server yesterday and wanted to expand a station and rebuild a station entrance so it could serve more trains. It was serving about 40 trains already, and as soon as I removed some track (I reconnected it differently about 30 seconds later) at least 4 or 5 trains started to complain that they were lost.

Obviously, they were lost because I had removed the only route to the station they were supposed to go to, so I considered it appropriate behavior. However, I never expected them to complain within 5 or 10 seconds.... and also, not ALL trains complained, so it must have just been the trains that were:

a) on their way to the station right at that moment (and not loading up or returning to their load destination)

b) checking at that moment if their route was still valid.

It could very well be that of the 40 or so trains that serve that station, actually only 5 were on their way to it, and the other 35 were either loading, or returning to their load station and therefore NOT lost. None of the trains going TO the main station were actually in the area yet, e.g. they weren't piling up right in front of the station waiting for me to reconnect the track, they were all some distance away and driving the track at full speed. I managed to reconnect part of the line again before the first train arrived at the station to unload.

I think this is easily reproducible too actually..... just make a long line with some trains on it, and then remove a tile somewhere and wait.....

MeusH · Post by **MeusH** » 27 Dec 2006 20:35

Recently someone committed a feature that displays warning when pathfinder returns no path instead if waiting for train to wander around for one year.

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 28 Dec 2006 00:19

Yes this was me. I wonder why somebody complains so much and doesn't provide savegame. If there is no savegame reproducing the problem, then there is no problem to fix.

richk67 · Post by **richk67** » 28 Dec 2006 02:22

Here you go... Switch to yellow - train 17 is lost almost immediately, but its one of dozens.

Mr. Wednesday · Post by **Mr. Wednesday** » 28 Dec 2006 05:10

MeusH wrote:Recently someone committed a feature that displays warning when pathfinder returns no path instead if waiting for train to wander around for one year.

If it's just displaying a warning (without the underlying path selection changing), IMO that's altering the symptoms without changing the behavior.

Ultimately, it's problematic to try to use two trains on a duplex track, because the one on a spur with a depot would rather complain about being lost than pull up to the red signal and wait for the other train to pass.

Seal · Post by **Seal** » 28 Dec 2006 08:33

@KUDr:

Please, gimme a break

"Complain so much" ... I'm still trying to figure out exactly what's going on and asking if someone else has the same problem.

Apparently, people have ( see savegame by richk67 ).

Mr. Wednesday has it right, instead of waiting at the red sign, apparently, it immediately complains about being lost. This confused me.

--
Seal

MacLir · Post by **MacLir** » 28 Dec 2006 12:21

@Rich:
I'd like to look at that save, but I haven't been able to find a compatible 'pb_hovs.grf' for it. Could you post it or PM it? I'd greatly appreciate it.

richk67 · Post by **richk67** » 28 Dec 2006 12:28

Ah - yes, it is an experimental one. Im not sure I can distribute it, though. Its one of Pikkabird's sets.

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 28 Dec 2006 12:53

richk67: please can you give me some savegame that i can load without tons of newgrf stuff? If you know how to reproduce the problem on trunk head build without obscure newgrfs, i would appreciate such savegame a lot. I would like to understand the problem and then look at it more deeply with debugger. I have played a lot with new 'train is lost' behavior, but never experienced any problem with it. Must be some railway design pattern that i don't use.

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 28 Dec 2006 13:01

Seal:

Seal wrote:@KUDr:
Mr. Wednesday has it right, instead of waiting at the red sign, apparently, it immediately complains about being lost. This confused me.
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Seal

Hmm, then there must be something wrong. Train should feel lost when stopped on red only if the red signal is two-way. It is by design because if there are two trains going against each other on two-way track and only one two-way signal is between them then those trains are really lost. They can only wait for timeout and reverse.

Is it your case?

KUDr · Post by **KUDr** » 28 Dec 2006 13:08

Mr. Wednesday:

Mr. Wednesday wrote:Ultimately, it's problematic to try to use two trains on a duplex track, because the one on a spur with a depot would rather complain about being lost than pull up to the red signal and wait for the other train to pass.

Not sure if i understand. But if you have depot and then two-way signal and want the train to wait in the depot until there is green, you can try to make this signal 'presignal-exit' type (two ctrl-clicks from normal signal) or 'combo'. Then your train should wait in the depot until this signal is green.

edit: or you can play with rail_firstred_twoway_eol value in your openttd.cfg under [yapf] section setting it to false. But if you want change it for already started game, use 'patch yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol 0' command in console.

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v0.5: "train is lost"

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