Best passenger transportation

[AlphaCentauriBear]

The passenger transportation economical challenge eludes me to be frank. Can someone explain the transportation concept or strategy for passengers, please? Thank you.

I understand the best transportation mean is the one capable transporting large capacity quick and far. With that said, trains are clear profit winners for ANY type of cargo including passengers. Why do we need other transportation types?
Even though planes can connect farther towns trains can make bigger profit transporting passengers between towns on medium distances.

The challenge with other cargo is that producers and consumers are few and scarce. Player had to choose best connection out of limited options.
Whereas, passengers are produced and consumed everywhere with as long route between them as needed. What is the challenge there?

[odisseus]

Yes, the original vehicle set is biased in favour of trains. Nonetheless, other modes of transport also have their advantages. For example, road vehicles allow you to place a station right in the middle of a city without having to demolish half of the city centre. Ship routes have theoretically unlimited capacity (because ships can pass through each other). Planes can bring you mountains of cash without the hassle of surveying a rail route.

It is worth noting that add-ons can affect this balance by changing the vehicle parameters and running costs.

[AlphaCentauriBear]

I agree that even with specific transport type bonuses one should still tune properties to make them right and (relatively) balanced.

My question is about a generic concept, though.
I see the primary challenge with other type of cargo in claiming most producing industry source and developing a best route to consumer. That is not a simple task taking limited number of producers and consumers, towns in between, other lines, hills, water, etc.
With passengers/mail I don't see it. Player can pick out of 10 biggest towns and just do whatever they want. Maybe I don't understand how economy of passengers works, of course. Is there a theory of the profit maximization for this?

[nihues]

The game design on vanilla is simple, but more advanced players do many things trying to mimic reality (or go for best profit), in the end making profit is easy, but keep a town growing is harder, specially if add Gamescripts like Renewed Village Growth that add cargo requirements for city grow, it limits the expansion of city based on other cargo transports, you need to link/use many/all industries if wanna grow cities/towns.

So pax money is easy city to city (with any transport, trains/planes are easy money maker). BUT change the cargo of pax/mail to symmetric and things start to get more interesting, you need to do many connections and all pax go on all connections. There are many YT videos explaining, if you're new try to watch some. I don't play vanilla as it's boring, but add more industries, add more costs (high running cost + infrastructure costs) and you start to feel more real/hard game. Still it's easy to make money anyway.
Another way to not get too bored is using the same line for pax/cargo or only pax / only cargo lines, when trains add up, it get crazy and you need to manage all trains. It's specially good with infrastructure costs on, because it can bankrupt if adding too many lines without trains using.

Also there is no limit on primary producers because you can fund new industries (you can change on settings), but to make the game interesting I like to play with very low normally and RVG will keep stable the industries for some time if I need I create more, but hardly do.

[odisseus]

You are missing a few important aspects of the game.

I see the primary challenge with other type of cargo in claiming most producing industry source and developing a best route to consumer.

Just "claiming" the industry is not enough; you also need to provide good transportation service. With excellent service, even the smallest industry will increase its output over time; conversely, a large industry will shrink and eventually disappear if the service is missing or inadequate.

With passengers/mail I don't see it. Player can pick out of 10 biggest towns and just do whatever they want.

Yes, connecting big cities is a good way to make great profits. However, this isn't necessarily an easy way:

• There may be no big cities present on the map.
• The distances between cities may be too long to cover in reasonable time with vehicles available at the moment.
• Building and maintaining the long-distance route may be extremely costly.
• On extremely long routes, breakdowns can dramatically increase the travel time (this is especially painful for aircraft, as they cannot take a detour to the nearby depot).

Is there a theory of the profit maximization for this?

See Cargo income.

[AlphaCentauriBear]

See Cargo income.

Thank you for the link. Sorry, I probably was not clear. This page I saw.
I meant is there a common understanding what is the most profitable business at any stage of the game. I am sure people played this game a lot should have compared different projects already.

[skc]

I meant is there a common understanding what is the most profitable business at any stage of the game. I am sure people played this game a lot should have compared different projects already.

There are as many different answers to that question as there are combinations of industry GRFs & vehicle GRFs.
Then you have some industry GRFs which evolve the industries that are present to better match the 'real world', others don't.
And if you factor in that some vehicle GRFs (like IronHorse) allow you to change the cargo capacity from their default up or down 33% or 77%, you've got so many combinations available that it's essentially impossible to give a straight forward answer and there's definitely no single answer that will work across all possible combinations that isn't filled with lots of vagueness.

For me, I play with a set of GRFs that I rarely change, and try to make a more profitable company in each game than I did in previous games.

[nihues]

I meant is there a common understanding what is the most profitable business at any stage of the game. I am sure people played this game a lot should have compared different projects already.

There are as many different answers to that question as there are combinations of industry GRFs & vehicle GRFs.
Then you have some industry GRFs which evolve the industries that are present to better match the 'real world', others don't.
And if you factor in that some vehicle GRFs (like IronHorse) allow you to change the cargo capacity from their default up or down 33% or 77%, you've got so many combinations available that it's essentially impossible to give a straight forward answer and there's definitely no single answer that will work across all possible combinations that isn't filled with lots of vagueness.

For me, I play with a set of GRFs that I rarely change, and try to make a more profitable company in each game than I did in previous games.

The most profitable is always getting 100% (or near it) usage on both directions without much delay and at longer distances. Passengers/Mail is easy to accomplish that goal. Cargo on the other hand normally is a one way and back without cargo on most cases. But if you find a way to return the trip with cargo, it can surpass pax income depending on cargo price. When your train system grows (and rails are linked each other), it's more easily achievable on cargo (think of adding big hub stations around the map, with small feeder getting/delivering cargo), and can get more easy with cargodist+autorefit (because it links automatically who need/want that cargo), or you can do it manually with more advanced orders per train.

[AlphaCentauriBear]

For me, I play with a set of GRFs that I rarely change, and try to make a more profitable company in each game than I did in previous games.

Mind sharing the set?

[AlphaCentauriBear]

The most profitable is always getting 100% (or near it) usage on both directions without much delay and at longer distances. Passengers/Mail is easy to accomplish that goal. Cargo on the other hand normally is a one way and back without cargo on most cases. But if you find a way to return the trip with cargo, it can surpass pax income depending on cargo price. When your train system grows (and rails are linked each other), it's more easily achievable on cargo (think of adding big hub stations around the map, with small feeder getting/delivering cargo), and can get more easy with cargodist+autorefit (because it links automatically who need/want that cargo), or you can do it manually with more advanced orders per train.

Agree about one route optimization. I meant that same pair of destinations can be linked with different transport types: train, car, plane. One of which may get better profit. I was asking about rule of thumb when to use which.

Great idea about building hub structures!
What is autorefit?

[LaChupacabra]

I meant is there a common understanding what is the most profitable business at any stage of the game.

It is almost always the transport of passengers and mail (mainly by trains) on A-B routes (without transfers and any intermediate stations) at a distance 100-150 days. The actual length depends on the speed of the vehicles. Of course, the faster the vehicles, the better. Transporting other loads can also generate very high income, but achieving it is much more time-consuming, although it is usually much more interesting.
When it comes to games with extensive sets of industries such as FIRS, XIS, AXIS, paradoxically, passenger transport has an even greater advantage over industrial transport. I don't understand why the authors configured it this way, but that's how it looks. In any case, it is possible to configure the game in such a way using existing add-ons that each type of transport and the transport of each cargo will be very similarly profitable. Unfortunately, this is quite time-consuming and requires knowledge of available add-ons.

If you want to see the effect of a not very difficult, but in my opinion well-balanced game, you can visit the server Openttd Polska - Mapa Polski. It also looks quite good on ttdistas servers, where the game takes place in various real parts of the world. Apart from a better economic balance, both of them use similar game scripts, which make the conditions for the development of cities much more complex and interesting. It is not enough to build and operate a few stops in the city, in order for the cities to grow faster and larger, you also need to provide food, building materials and, preferably, also service the nearby industry.

If you would like to configure your own game, I can recommend some good, proven add-ons:

Trains:
2CC Trains - a lot of locomotives from all over the world, a lot of wagons, very high (a little too high) and well-balanced prices and costs, the first locomotives available already at the beginning of the 19th century.
Timberwolf Trains - a complete set with trains (horses) available since 1700, a fairly good balance of costs, although they could be higher.
Polish Trains Set (PKP Set) - regional, but well-balanced prices and costs, interesting specialized wagons with different properties.
VAC Trains - a set of futuristic vacuum railways - very expensive trains and tracks, the costs of building the line can reach hundreds of millions or even billions of pounds, but they are adequate to the profits.
NuTrack - a set of train tracks with different speeds, doesn't look as good as U&ReRMM, but is much better balanced.

Road vehicles:
eGRVTS - a very rich set with buses, trucks and trams, good balance, although the costs could be higher
Timberwolf Road Vehicles - overall well-balanced, complete set, costs of long-used vehicles are increasing, graphics with higher resolution
Polroad - a regional, although interesting set, thanks to the cargo aging function long-distance buses are more profitable on long routes, and city buses are worth using only for short distances, trucks have quite complex, but interesting refit options.
U&Ratt - the most interesting set with many types of roads

Ships:
Shark- the newest, richest of the "FISH" series, good balance, but both prices and costs can be increased x2, they sail slowly, but the aging of cargoes is very slow, which makes them profitable even over long distances.

Airplanes:
World Airlines Set (WAS) - the only set of planes that is well balanced, prices and costs are high but proportional to the profits, but you can increase them x2 or x4 and still all planes will be playable, unfortunately there are no helicopters here (there are only one airship), and the first plane appeared only in 1967.

Economy:
Base Cost Mod 5.0 - allows you to increase (or decrease) almost all costs and prices
Passenger and Mail Payment Control - allows you to easily change the rates for transporting these cargoes
Ultimate Cargo Payment Override - allows you to change all rates, which, however, is very time-consuming here
Buy, process, sell [ECS] - you pay for raw materials, you only earn on delivery goods and food, add-on designed for the ECS industrial set, but also works with the default and OpenGFX +Industries set.
Industries of Caribbean - a set of enterprises based on the same principle as the one above, but here the factories also require (huge) supplies of workers.
Manpower OpenGFX+Industries - a set that allows you to combine enterprises from all climates on one map, in addition, employees are needed to increase the mining production.

Game Scripts:
Their main goal is to make the conditions for urban development more sensible, but some have certain additional functions.
Renewed Village Growth - complex conditions for urban development, the most refined and still developed, based on the no longer working
RCG script.
Renewed World Disorder - another variation of the RCG script, mainly changed categories of cargo that need to be delivered, conceptually referring to the NWD script.
City Growth Limiter - a simple script that limits excessive city growth
Villages is Villages - a script that is so-so in terms of city development, but has an interesting function of taxes and dividends that effectively limit excess cash.
New World Disorder - a script that no longer works properly today, I only mention it because of its unique features: the city, in order to grow better, required, for example, complex communication and with this script made the construction of communication networks using Cargodist real sense, this script also doesn't required the player to take care of everything, instead of makeing network for passenger comunication you could support any branch of industry and that was also enough for nearby cities to develop. The script worked correctly until version 1.8.0 of OpenTTD. Although I'm its co-author (concept), unfortunately I don't know what needs to be changed for it to continue to work.

Game settings:
It will soon be possible to limit the production of passengers and mail by cities

[Argus]

But it is already possible to set the proportion of cargo produced by cities. Changing the factor of production is quite effective.

[Emperor Jake]

Being able to change the cargo generation factor is a JGRPP feature. But something similar might possibly be included in vanilla soon

[AlphaCentauriBear]

Thank you, LaChupacabra, for providing such excessive list! I will check them.

There are so many mods and variations already that I am lost. I like original game style and combination of industry and cargo. At the time I don't want to add multiple variations. Just trying to fix economy in original game to see if I can continue enjoying it.

Here are two things I am aiming to fix.
1. Ensure that longer route NEVER yield higher revenue. Thus disabling incentive for longer routes.
2. Adjust balance between transportation types to make them more effective in certain cases. Thus making all transportation types usable in one way or another.

As for disabling bonus for longer route, the only simple approach I found so far is to disregard transportation distance. I tested it and it works well for industry cargo.

Not sure about passengers/mail/valuables as their sources and destination are same and abundant. There is a point in making them pay more for farther travel and benefit player for building longer travel routes. Otherwise, it won't be beneficial to set anything longer than 6 tiles distance (two not overlapping catchment areas) route. One solution I found is to keep distance multiplier but make their time penalty very harsh. I am testing 40 days complete decay now. Meaning they worth zero if delivered in 40 days or more. This essentially puts a limit on transportation speed: buses for intertown or very close towns, trains for relatively close towns, slow planes for short map distances, fast planes for mid map, and supersonic jets are for cross map travel.
There is also option for non linear dependency between payment and distance. Need to work on the math.

About balancing different transportation types, I envision road vehicles being very cheap on running cost but their speed won't allow far transportation. Trains are faster for mid map transportation.

[Nordic player]

I like to play with Timberwolf.. I like that feature that trains and cars I historic. I don't like to play with fantasy trains. Ta older grf that is very useful is ikarus busset. I haven't play with auz yet I prefer europian trains best because I know. Earlier does I play with so much grf as possible. Now I have only one set. Swedish houses is another grf I play with, the same with Isa stations .

The fun with Timberwolf is that there is a strategy off choices. Not every train is best for og everything and some train is mot worth to buy. I play with venhciles brake down no inflasjon . That is different tracks to choice but dual track is much more expensiv than no electricity .

I have a highmap that I love to play
Captain k sealand. Very good highmap that 2024 x2024. It is very easy to build tracks and I'd you are lucky with the map ,you will find coastal city with industry and cities on iland. . I like to play with firs to but I have t try that out on the highmap.

[gravelpit]

I'm reading you and I have a question whether it makes sense to make trains with many shorter stops or only AB. Generally, I want the most realistic representation of a real railway as possible, where we have a choice of regional and direct connections, but in the game the passenger is stupid, and in reality, we people, when we have time to travel, choose the cheaper option. In general, it would be a nice thing to regulate the rates for transporting cargo, where it would be possible to compete, e.g. with newer, more economical and more economical rolling stock, with lower transport rates than the competition.

[jfs]

If your goal is just to make money, it's all about moving large amounts of cargo long distances, fast. Not much can beat a supersonic plane from one corner of the map to the other, in terms of making money off passengers.

[AlphaCentauriBear]

Are you sure supersonic plane beats supersonic train?

[dol422]

Well, planes can go faster. They're only really limited on airspace

[AlphaCentauriBear]

That is my point. The fastest train is faster than the fastest plane.